Is Holden a typical teenager? Does his voice ring true? Do his words reveal a keen eye for humanity's foibles, or does his voice simply illustrate a cynical, depressed complainer? Select a quote from Chapter 15 up until the end of the book that you feel is a strong illustration of your take on Holden. Use this quote as a jumping off point to illustrate your take on Holden as a character. Explain how this quote illustrates your point.
Respond to at least one other person's quote.
This post is due by Tuesday at 11:00 p.m.
"Take most people, they're crazy about cars." ... "I don't even like old cars. I mean they don't even interest me. I'd rather have a goddamn horse. A horse is at least human." (Page 131)
ReplyDeleteHolden's voice and opinion characterize him as an extremely perspicacious teenager, not a, "cynical, depressed, complainer." As Holden recognizes, most average teenagers are hung up on appearance and social status and aren't amused by interesting human interaction. However, Holden states that cars are of no interest to him, even though they are a material object that teens often desire. He displays his craving for human interaction and his maturity when he states, "A horse is at least human." In my opinion, the majority of teenage boys would much rather indulge in the luxury of a new car than ride a wild animal, which is what makes Holden an unusual yet incisive young adult.
This quote captures a critical side of Holden's despair. Consider the loneliness of some of the characters in Feed, and how an increasing connection with material things fosters an increasing disconnect with humans. How might this relate to Holden's abhorrence of cinema, and his appreciation of the nuns, the little boy, the Museum of Natural History, and even the ducks?
Delete"I can understand someone going to the movies because there's nothing else to do, but when somebody really wants to go, and even walks fast so as to get there quicker, then it depresses the hell out of me." (Page 116) In this passage Holden goes on a tangent about the people who like to go to the movies. There is irony in the fact that Holden found himself going to a movie when he was at Pencey. Digging deeper into the passage illustrates how Holden complaints about society (like being happy to go to the movies.) What holden hates about society is everything that he could become. For instance, when he went out with Sally Hayes who he called "the queen of phonies," he ended up calling her back late one night even though he already insulted her, showing that his thoughts rarely match up with his words. That being said, maybe Holden does see societies flaws (Like phony people, and habits like going to the movies,) even though he is a part of it. Society is always changing and forcing people to be the same, Holden does not want to be a surrogate of society, but he knows he won't fit in if he doesn't. Holden is a teenager stuck in the middle of his beliefs and the rest of society that is "normal"
ReplyDelete"Listen. Let's get one thing straight. I refuse to answer any typical Holden Caulfield questions tonight. When in the hell are you going to grow up.?" (146) I think this quote properly illustrates how annoying and whiny Holden can come of as. Holden is very vvynjical and his voice doesn't ring true at all. He is one of the biggest hypocrites I have ever seen. He says that he hates things that are phony and fake but he is probably the fakest character in the book. Holden is constantly lying to everyone about everything. He lies about his age, his name, how he's feeling, and he still has yet to talk to his parents. His cynicism and constant complaining have annoyed almost every other character in the book he has talked to.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Holden is a hypocrite, but I have empathy for him because of his situation. Someone like Holden, who has been through the death of his brother, and gotten kicked out of school, has a reason to be awkward and crude in social situations. Holden also does not seem to have one "best friend" who he hangs out with and can talk to besides his kid sister Phoebe. That is one of the reasons why he loves her so much. In terms of his depressed out look on the world, another example would be James Castle, a friend of his who died while being thrown out a window by a group of kids. Holden has a terrible outlook on society because he has witnessed tragedies and its flaws. I completely agree that he is cynical and a hypocrite; however, I believe that he deserves some sympathy.
DeleteI agree that Holden is often hypocritical, but not because of the lies that he is always telling. Holden's definition of being fake and phony has nothing to do with the truth, or lack thereof, in my opinion. Little things, such as the conversations one has, or the way one greets another, are the root of Holden's hatred of phoniness. Holden does contradict himself often in the book, an example being when he goes to movies, but his lying is not one of those contradictions. I believe that if someone told Holden a lie, and he recognized it, he wouldn't immediately dismiss that person as a phony. However, if that person gushed about the movies, or a celebrity, Holden would mentally categorize that person as a "fake". I think in Holden's mind, lying and being phony are two very different things, and so when he lies, he doesn't see himself as being hypocritical. Being phony is more of an active adherence to what is accepted, desired or popular. Lying, I think, for Holden, is more of a way to liven up a conversation, and just a kind of "knee jerk" reaction to questions that are posed by people he doesn't think need the truth.
DeleteExcellent point Hannah.
DeleteI think Holden is anything but a typical teenager. Most teenagers are obsessed with themselves, and tend to overestimate the importance of themselves. Holden, on the other hand, underestimates his importance. He looksAt humanity's problems, not just his own. However, I do think he has a tendency to be whiny and irritating, because he seems to have no discernment. He dislikes everything, and therefore is annoying. The quote that describes him is, "I'd rather have a goddamn horse. A horse is at least human, for God's sake." This shows that he is desperate to find truth and realism in life, and is unsuccessful
ReplyDeleteI agree. While Holden acts intelligently every so often, he seems like the worst person in the world to be around. While others are enjoying their lives, he always sees problems in every situation that others are keen to blissfully ignore. He makes the slightest occurrences into terribly big deals, which is absolutely beyond annoying.
DeleteI disagree that Holden seems the be, "the worst person in the world to be around." While he is occasionally pessimistic, he sees beyond the superficial aspects of life. Holden seems to have a talent for truly reading people for their inherent nature, and doesn't fall for the act that some put on. In addition, Holden actually seems to be somewhat fun when he is around certain people. I believe the reason that a reader would find his attitude annoying is readers observe not only his actions, but his private thoughts. When interacting with an average person, one can't read their mind.
DeleteI agree with Brette. Though Holden does have a tendency to look at the negative side of things sometimes, that doesn't make him terribly annoying or a terrible person to be around. As Brette said, we, as the reader, have a twisted view of Holden because we are privy to his thoughts as well as his actions. I guarantee that people are thinking completely differently from how they act. Also Holden's view of the world was definitely changed because of the traumatic death of his brother. Death can often lead to a more pessimistic view of the world, and when you lose someone so close to you, your world is turned upside down. Holden doesn't see that world of innocence that he and Allie once lived in. Though this is not the only reason Holden is pessimistic, it is a huge factor. However I believe that this view creates a very honest portrayal of the world
DeleteBrette and Devin highlight an important point to keep in mind. As we discussed before we began reading this book, we must keep in mind at all times that we are in Holden's mind. Do we have the right to judge someone based on his thoughts? What would our own thoughts sound like?
Delete"You think if they're intelligent and all, the other person, and have a good sense of humor, that they don't give a damn whose suitcases are better, but they do. They really do." Holden brings up a good point about how teenagers view the world. No matter what someone's personality is, what a person has will always, in some way, define them. Holden notices the difference between people who are wealthy, such as him and Stradlater, and people such as his old roommate. Holden is just being honest as always, showing that he realizes that a better suitcase represents a wealthier person. He isn't necessarily being cynical about the way money affects people, but rather the uncomfortable conversations between he and his roommate where Holden's materials were referred to as "bourgeois" by his roommate. Holden is not a "cynical, depressed complainer," but an expert on recognizing the faults of human nature and frankly proclaiming them.
ReplyDeleteI agree, I think that Holden takes faults of humans and expresses them in a way that may come off as offensive when he is really just trying to be brutally honest. Holden has a way of explaining these small flaws with people and magnifying them to the point that makes the reader step back to think if it was really necessary for him to go into so much depth. Holden seems to point out these small nuances with characters when first introducing them; however, as we learn more about the character, we learn more positive characteristics. He uses this way of characterization when describing Stradlater and others also. This seems to be the way he is describing this flaw of human nature: judging others on their possessions. I agree that Holden is not a depressed complainer in this example and others in the book.
DeleteI think that this quote perfectly describes the nature of average teenagers. Holden is simply stating that no matter what, money is going to be a factor of the way others view you. Also, money is often something that is highly valued among teenagers, and one who has more money than another might be more highly respected because of it. The problem with this is that most typical teenagers want to be treated the same. They don't want it to be apparent that any one person may have more money than another. That is why Holden's roommate kept Holden's suitcases out on the shelves and his under his bed. He wanted people to think that Holden's expensive suitcases were his suitcases so that they would not judge the difference between him and Holden based on money. Also, I agree that in this scenario Holden is not making a cynical or depressed statement. He is simply stating flaws and views that many average teenagers hold within them.
Delete"It's full of phonies, and all you do is study so that you can learn enough to be smart enough to be able to buy a goddam Cadillac some day...'"(p. 131). Holden seems to be very critical of most everyone. "Phonies" is one of his favorite descriptions of people. In this case it's as if their striving to be successful and purchase an expensive car means that they're "fake." I feel that Holden's copious use of the word "phonies" is an indication of Holden's envy and regret. I say this because, many people that he calls phonies are or will be successful. Holden looks at these people and regrets the schools that he's flunked out of or not applying himself like he should. Holden also mentions him being the only "dumb" one in the family meaning he looks down on his past. My quote supports this because Holden is calling guys at an all boys school phonies simply because they strive to be successful and buy a Cadillac, a symbol of their success.
ReplyDeleteCould it be that he doesn't see the value in working so hard to get material things?
Delete"That's the terrible part. I swear to god I'm a madman." page 134.
ReplyDeleteI think Holden is very similar to most teenagers. As we grow up we start to look at everything that is happening around us. We question the things adults told us to believe, or how to act. Sooner or later, everyone begins to think for themselves. We want to become independent and start accomplishing things by on our own. Holden takes every little detail he has experienced so far in his life and questions what they mean. As teenagers, we are constantly wondering how others think and why they act the way they do. We look around at the horrible and amazing things happening today and see them in our own way. It feels good not having someone to tell you how you should think. However, as teenagers we often have no idea of what we really want, or who we are. Holden's opinion of people, partically girls he interacts with, can fluctuate dramatically. A minor flaw in how they converse with him, or just the way the look at the moment can totally change his entire opinion of a person. Holden often thinks he is a "madman" because his views on others are constantly changing. Holden has no real motive of what to do because he is unaware of what he wants.
"you have to keep making believe you give a damn if the football team loses, and all you do is talk about girl and liquor and sex all day, and everybody sticks together in these dirty little goddam cliques." (page 131) I think this quote really expresses what Holden thinks about an average teenager. This quote takes place when Holden is explaining to Sally what a boys school is really like. Holden wants to think to himself that he is not comparable to most normal teenagers. He wants to express to us that he is not interested with the things that the majority of teenage boys enjoy. Holden does not hold back when expressing how he is really feeling or what his thoughts are. This helps the reader to really get a grasp on who Holden really is as a character as apposed to who he wants to tell us he is. Holden tells us that he is constantly thinking about things such as sex, and we can all tell by his thoughts how much girls are on his mind. I think that Holden is a lot similar to most teenage boys, but wants to think that he isn't because he thinks of most teenagers to be "phonies". When really looking farther into his thoughts it is apparent to me that Holden has diversity; however, overall he is very similar to a conventional teenager.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this. In this quote, Holden is somehow dividing himself from what may be describe as a "typical teenaged boy". By doing this, he shows the reader that he is uninterested in these topics and I feel that it is mostly because that is what's common and average. What differs Holden from the boys at his school is that he doesn't want to be mainstream, like all the others. Often, Holden hides this his actions, but as readers we get to see what Holden is thinking and it is evident that Holden does seem to differentiate from the crowd.
DeleteHolden is mostly an extreme cynic, but will utter an interesting observation from time to time. Oddly, though, he's always direct and specific when being cynical; however, when he says something intriguing, one must surmise it from what he said.
ReplyDelete"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was."
(pg. 121)
By this quote, Holden tells us that he despises entropy; all he wants is peace and simplicity. It's not directly stated, but is instead implied. It almost seems like Holden doesn't know when he's actually being intelligent.
I completely agree with your thought on Holden's real insight. But I see his anti-entropy as not cynic, but rather responsible towards every action. He understand that each action will lead to a consequence, so maybe that is why he feels if he doesn't do anything, he wouldn't cause any any more negative ending.
DeleteEamon,
DeleteYou make a very astute and interesting point here in regards to Holden's specificity versus his ambiguity.
“Nobody’d be different. The only thing that would be different would be you. Not that you’d be so much older or anything. It wouldn’t be that, exactly. You’d just be different, that’s all. (Page 121) This quote stuck out to me primarily because it is was of the only quotes in this story that has made me stop reading and think. Holden, who has a way to specifically describe something, had my mind puzzled for a moment. After digging deeper into this quote though, I believe Holden has actually made a simple sentence, into an incredible description. During this part of the story Holden is explaining how he always visits the museum. His main point is how every time he visits he feels uneasy, as the museum has not changed at all, in opposed to how much he has. Holden’s emotional stability at this part of the story is not very strong, he is lost and lonely. Holden overall has a problem with the ever changing world. He claims how he wishes he could take everything in his life and preserve it in a glass cage as the museum has. In reality though, he cannot. When Holden upsets Sally, he tries to fix the conflict leaving without success. This he cannot fix or go back to, he has changed a part of his life. While if he returns to the museum, everything remains the same. It is unbroken, solid in time, and easy. This is why Holden craves that fantasy so much as his inability to deal with real life situations has driven him into isolation and sadness. Holden cannot confront his own mistakes like the one with Sally, and tries to cover it with a phony version of himself filled with a cynical attitude, and a fake smile.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with your point mainly because I do not believe that Holden wishes to "cover" his mistakes with an altered version of himself. Although Holden does try to soften the situation with Sally, he is in no way trying to shield his true thoughts or ideas, he is simply trying to defuse an awkward situation. In addition, I don't believe that holden "craves" any alternate fantasy. Though at times Holden's tone may make it seem as if he has a rather unappreciative and corrupt view of his life and the world, he is really just describing things as they are. It is impossible for everyone's thoughts to be kind at all times; however, unlike Holden, we contain it. Finally, I don't agree with the statement that Holden has a "problem" with the "ever chaining world", I think he is merely describing something that he has noticed comes of life.
DeleteI also disagree with your point, for the some of the same reasons as Emily. I think that Holden is fascinated by the lack of change in the museum because it reveals more to him about the constant change that humans experience. Holden is very frank and honest about his opinion of human nature, which could be interpreted as him not appreciating the world that he lives in. Au contraire, I think that Holden's honesty shows that he views the world in its entirety, so he sees all the good and all the bad. I don't think that Holden wanting to preserve his life in a glass cage means that he craves an alternate fantasy, but instead means that he knows his world is constantly changing and appreciates the way it is for him in the present.
Delete"I don't even like old cars. I mean they don't even interest me. I'd rather have a goddam horse."(131) Holden doesn't think of himself as a typical teenage boy. The interests of most boys his age, and things they talk about, such as cars; Holden expresses he is not into. Additionally, he doesn't want to be compared to other teenagers, as he feels that most are phony. Holden continually tells the reader what he does or doesn't like and isn't afraid to speak his mind. This helps the reader identify precisely the type of person Holden truly is. He is unique and comfortable in his own skin; saying things most people would never admit. In my opinion, Holden isn't the cookie-cutter image of a typical teenage boy.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your statement, Maci. Holden often exhibits extreme disrespect and distaste towards those who are "fake" or "phony," and would surely not enjoy being categorized as this himself. I think Holden believes that those who are centered around material things, ultimately live a more unfulfilled lifestyle; as they do not build their lives around forming actual human relationships. This correlates to Holden's idea that, "I'd rather have a goddamn horse." Holden is displaying to the reader that he would rather have human interaction than material things. Ultimately, this shows that Holden is not like a regular teenager, but instead, enlightened and understanding of life.
DeleteI agree that Holden does not perceive himself as a typical, "phony" teenager; however, while I read this book, I often times find myself believing the contrary. In fact, I believe that Holden is the biggest phony of them all! He always describes people as fake, yet he shows the same qualities as them. For example, he is always lying. In fact, Holden states that he is "the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life." A lie that is particularly evident to me was during the conversation on the train ride to New York with his peer's mother. Right in the beginning of the conversation, Holden told the mother a fake name. Then, Holden proceeded to tell the mother multiple lies about her very own son, making her son out to be a better man than he actually is. Lastly, Holden told the mother that he is going to New York to get surgery on his brain! These string of lies didn't have an ounce of truth in them, which, in my opinion, makes the conversation seemingly fake; it is as if the conversation never happened. This leads me to believe that, like many teenagers, Holden only lies to make himself more comfortable in his own skin, a contrasting opinion to Maci's statement. Therefore, I overall think that Holden is more of a typical teenager than people depict him to be.
Delete"Certain things they should stay the way they are. You ought to be able to stick them in one of those big glass cases and just leave them alone." (page 122)
ReplyDeleteIn this quote, Holden is addressing how all things in life change and shift and nothing every stays the same. He is able to hone in on the little aspects of life that many notice but never really acknowledge or analyze. Not only does he have this ability to notice these small details, he is able to illustrate them in such a way that it causes the reader to wonder why they have never noticed such a detail before. In addition, at no point int he novel has Holden said something that he doesn't believe true, he consistently speaks his mind and doesn't contort what he is saying into what he thinks whomever his reader is wants to hear. Holden's attentive ways and straight forward manner do not correspond with those of a "typical teenager", and at times it seems as if Holden is an older man trapped inside the body of this seventeen year old boy. It seems to me that, at times, Holden doesn't know how to keep up with his thoughts, with causes him to seem contradictory. Though at points Holden's tone and attitude can come off as snobbish and slightly cynical, he simply speaks his mind and doesn't sugar coat it.
“Goddam money. It always ends up making you blue as hell.” (p. 113)
ReplyDeleteThroughout the book, it is proven to the reader that Holden is not quite a typical teenager. He has somewhat of a cynical view on the world but also a realistic view. Although the thought that money makes people sad is a depressing thought, it is also a true statement. Many people, especially in the modern day recession, worry about money so much that it takes over their lives. On the other side of that, people with too much money often let the money control them. The way Holden thinks makes The Catcher in the Rye a more interesting book to read because he puts a deeper thought into certain aspects of life that most teenagers don't think about such as money. This way of thinking was also demonstrated when Holden was talking about receiving presents and how they always make him feel bad, which is similarly a realistic view on things.
I love how you use a real world example (the recession) and apply it to Holden's thought process. It is clear that Holden is very cynical and that he can be more easily related to an adult than a teenager. His views on receiving presents and money are both prime examples of this.
DeleteI disagree with your point of Holden not being a typical teenager. I believe that Holden is a typical teenager, however, we are not normally illustrated characters in such a way that Holden is portrayed. If you took an average teenager and wrote about him in the same style as J.D. Salinger does with Holden, then they would probably be very similar. I do agree with your point about Holden being a realistic thinker. Holden's thoughts may be negative or not thoughts we would like to hear, but they are real and true. Holden brings out characteristics in normal actions, such as the gift giving example you used, and makes very keen observations that people are aware of but don't generally think of. Holden is a creative thinker and a very observant teenager, but none the less an average teenager.
DeleteTaylor make an interesting point. Is it Holden himself who is so unique, or it is the way in which Salinger portrays him, allowing us access to his every thought?
Delete“...I was glad those two nuns didn’t ask me if I was Catholic. It wouldn’t have spoiled the conversation if they had, but it would’ve been different, probably.”
ReplyDeleteI respect Holden’s opinions when he expresses how he appreciated the nuns’ unconcern regarding his own religious views. Often, when individuals have strong beliefs, they tend to force these opinions upon others, making them feel subordinate and unworthy. Holden notices how people allude social inequalities, whether it’s by the the religion a person practices, the quality of their suitcase, or the luxury of the car they drive. Holden is different from the stereotypical teenager because he avoids displaying these inequalities as best as he can. Frequently, he even tries to boost others’ egos rather than degrading the people he interacts with. This is a very mature, honorable trait that Holden possesses.
"All that crap they have in cartoons in the Saturday Evening Post and all, showing guys on street corners looking sore as hell because their dates are late- that's bunk. If a girl looks swell when she meets you, who gives a damn if she's late? Nobody." (Salinger, 125)
ReplyDeleteFrom his perspective on the issue of girl arriving late, finding the guy sore out, I can assume that Holden is smart enough to know better. I really like how Holden tied in the reference of the TV show in his explanation of his own view. His, again, informative insight can lead a reader into believing Holden's a reliable source that has a lot of insight. Instead of referring to a more serious source, Holden's a pretty average teenager to correlate his statement with cartoons. Overall based on Holden's direct opinion about guys not actually sore when a girl's late showed me that he is a teenager, but an insightful about humanity at that
I agree. I believe Holden is a insightful teenager who can tell the difference from what is fake and not. He also does act as if he is talking to someone his own age because of his use of small facts that everyone knows. He talks like a teenager and does not seem to shy away from the fact that he has many normal problems and pet peeves.
DeleteI understand Woody's point about Holden's reference to cartoons making him seem authentic as a teenager, but I'm not sure authenticity and reliability are the same thing.
Delete"I was getting a little too personal. I realize that. But that was one of the annoying things about Luce. When we were at Whooton he'd make you describe the most personal stuff that happened to you, but if you started asking him questions about himself he got sore." (pg. 147) This quote shows that not only is Holden a bit of a cynical, depressed complainer, but also that he is a bit of a hypocrite as well. You can see Holden's cynical, depressed side when he tells you "that was one of the annoying things about Luce." Instead of listing the positive qualities of people first, Holden always starts by judging others based on their flaws. It was Holden's choice to call up Luce and invite him out to have a drink with him, but even though he does that he still complains cynically about all of the little things that Luce says and does that annoys him. This quote also shows that Holden can be a hypocrite sometimes. When he tells you that one of the annoying things about Luce was that "he'd make you describe the most personal stuff that happened to you, but if you started asking him questions about himself he got sore," it becomes apparent that Holden has a bit of this quality himself. As Holden narrates the whole story, he only tells the bits and pieces that he wants to tell. Also, when Holden is asked anything personal he often tells a lie and will not share the truth. I think that Holden dislikes this quality of Luce because he sees people who won't share personal things as phonies, which are his biggest pet peeve, but also Holden won't share too much personal information about himself to others, which makes him a bit of a phony too. I think that the reason for Holden's cynical, depressed comments and views on others, and his inability to admit that he himself is a phony sometimes comes from the death of his brother Allie. I think that all of these characteristics are what Holden uses to put up a barrier to the outside world, and to try and help him move on and not think about his painful past.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete"The terrible part, though, is that I meant it when I asked her, That's the terrible part. I swear to God I'm a madman." Page 134
I believe that Holden is a very strong narrator. He has these insights to humanity that many other people overlook. He is very much a typical teenager: insecure, sincere, and a little bit mad. This quote best portrays Holden because of what he is saying and how he is saying it. He is telling the reader that when he asked Sally to run away with him, he really meant it. For that moment, he truly wanted to run away with her. One thing that Holden does very well as a narrator, that we see here, is the way he can be so relatable. As a teenager feelings are so much more intense and real. In that instant Holden wanted to run away with Sally. He has this deep insight to humanity and its brief whims. Sometimes in one moment you can feel something deeper and more intense then anything you have felt before. In this way Holden is a normal teenager, however in the next sentence we see how he is different. He is much smarter, more insightful, more insecure,and much madder than any regular teen. Holden calls himself "mad", while normal teenagers don't acknowledge their craziness. I think Holden is recognizing that he might have a warped view of things sometimes, and that he is sometimes much crazier than the rest of us.
After reading your response to this quote, I agree with you, about how Holden might be a typical teenager with the same feelings as any other teenager. He has moments when he feels insecure and sincere about a topic. When he's in the museum, talking about it, his tone is one of sincerity. I also agree with you about his intense moments when he is thinking about something important to him.
DeleteI really like the points that you make about Holden being an extremely relatable narrator and that the reason why his thoughts are so intriguing because feelings as a teenager are so much more raw and intense. Holden's narrating is so powerful because there is no filter on his thoughts. His observations are so true and honest, it is fascinating to read.
DeleteHolden explains his strong feelings towards Sally at the moment. Many of times people get caught up in the moment, and say things they wouldn't normally do. In this sense Holden does exhibit more of a "normal teenage" mind. I agree with you that he is a strong narrator. He becomes very passionate when talking about certain topics, and it is something I enjoy about the book.
Delete“Goddam money. It always ends up making you blue as hell.” Pg. 113
ReplyDeleteFrom Holden's pervious thoughts and conversation, one can tell that he is not a typical teenager. Because he is not a typical teenager some of his conversations quotes have a deeper meaning to them than just stating a fact. This quote that he addresses about money tells the readers of one of the foibles of humans, thinking money is everything. I interpret this quote, acknowledging the fact what money does to people, it makes them sad. I think Holden knows that money is a cause of most people sadness. He resents the fact that money takes up most people's lives. He also dislikes that people would rather much spend money on cars and other non-important things rather than spend it on good and useful things.
[My mother] hasn't felt too healthy since my brother Allie died. She's very nervous. That's another reason why I hated like hell for her to know I got the ax again." (p107)
ReplyDeleteAlthough we have often been exposed to the cynical, depressed side of Holden, I believe that, through this quote, his true sympathetic and tender personality shines through. Holden demonstrates his understanding of what his mother may have been going through, and his words are genuine and sincere. I am convinced that Holden’s thoughts go deeper than that of an average teenager; he shows deep compassion and understanding of the truth behind humanity’s emotional obstacles.
I agree with you, Cara. Holden's thoughts are deep and complex. What I find interesting about Holden is that in the midst of his cynical, pessimistic thoughts, there are occasional glimpses of hope and positivity. I find it exciting to discover what Holden will think highly of, including discovering more about Jane, Allie, and others whom we already know he respects. The one aspect about his parents I am finding confusing, though, is I can't figure out his view on his parents. Here, when talking about his mom, Holden seems sympathetic and caring towards her. However, in other situations, he talks about his parents negatively. What are Holden's thoughts on his parents? Has he given a clear opinion on them?
DeleteThat's a valid question, but in reality, do many of us have a clear, one-sided view of our parents? Don't we all (teenagers and adults alike) have complicated and nuanced relationships with our parents, respecting, admiring, and loving the, while resenting and misunderstanding them as well?
DeleteI think Holden has a typical relationship with his parents that most teens can relate to. He respects his mother's feelings, and though we haven't heard much about his father, nothing negative regarding him has been conveyed. However, as any teenager may concur, having two authoritative figures to comply to isn't always the most appealing thing, especially for Holden after being kicked out of Pencey Prep. I believe that Holden is afraid for his parents to find out about his about his expulsion not only because he may be punished, but also because it may upset his parents emotionally and cause him guilt.
Delete"In the first place, I hate actors. The never act like people."
ReplyDeleteAt first glance, Holden's complaints seem like the typical rambling complaints of an average, egocentric teenager, but then when you read deeper, it is evident that Holden's observations are not just random grumbles of a teenager, but more profound thoughts and opinions of an intelligent young man. This quote describes this idea of Holden's character because his reasoning for hating actors is a serious concept. He hates actors because they don't act like real people, because they are phonies. This explains an idea that applies to the world today. The idea that people act "fake" or "phony". Is it right for people to put on a false identity and act fake in order to fit in with society or to fit a certain personality or profile that is liked? This is an interesting point that Holden points out. Holden is clearly an eye for human foibles and is not just a depressed and cynical teenager.
I think this is certainly accurate. Also, I believe, Holden hates actors for more reasons than mentioned in this quote. He strongly dislikes people who strike him as fake or phony, and who could be more fake than actors? Their job is to pretend to be someone or something they aren't. What Holden wants, in my opinion, is something real. He wants life to seem completely and entirely real, with no fake people in it. This doesn't make him a cynical, grumpy teenager. It makes him more intelligent, and probably eventually more successful than those who surround themselves with lies in order to achieve happiness.
Delete"If there's one word I hate, it's grand. It's so phony."
ReplyDeleteThis quote is typical of Holden. He's extremely opinionated, and not afraid to make his impressions known. He also despises anything he feels is fake, or insincere; in his words, "phony". This seems, to me, both typical and abnormal for a teenager. It's typical of any teenager to be extremely opinionated, but few teenagers (that I know of) are so set against things, people, and actions they view as fake. Holden continually insists he's not smart and such, but it certainly takes a high level of intelligence to realize the fakeness of the things he describes. His outlook is cynical, but it's also realistic and observant of life as it truly is, with no lies or nonexistent softness.
"The trouble with me is, I always have to read that stuff by myself. If an actor acts it out I hardly listen." Holden is definitely not a normal teenager. No matter where in the world you look, I'd guess 9/10 kids would say that they would rather see a movie than read a book. Holden is the exact opposite. He seems like he has lost his youth. As opposed to many teens who have a optimistic view and love to go out and be social and have fun, Holden likes reading and being alone. Honestly, he acts far more like a 40+ year-old divorcee than a youthful teenager.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Holden is not the stereotypical teenager. However, his actions contradict themselves. For example, Holden smokes a ridiculous amount of cigarettes for his age, and also buys alcohol illegally at clubs. These adolescent actions contradict his seemingly mature nature regarding other fields, such as your point about his preference of books over movies.
Delete"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody'd move...Nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you. Not that you'd be so much older or anything. It wouldn't be that, exactly. You'd just be different, that's all." (page 121)
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows that Holden has an insightful, poignant view on the nuances of human nature. Holden realizes that everyone is constantly changing, and contrasts the continuous vicissitudes of humans to the steady persistence and continuity of the museum. This is an astute and conscious observation that reveals much about Holden's character. The quote shows that Holden is aware of how all people change and the balance of the world is always shifting. Holden's view of human nature does tend to skew toward the cynical side, but at the same time, it is very keen. The 'typical' teenager is a broad term, and in some senses he does fit the mold, but in others he does not. Many teenagers tend to have a more contemptuous view of humanity, as adolescence is a time of change and learning that often creates cynical opinion. In that way, Holden is a typical teenager. At the same time, Holden is very observant of humanity, in a way that many teenagers are not. This discerning view is exhibited by Holden's acknowledgement of the continuous change of humanity and human nature.
"The thing is, it's really hard to be roommates with people if your suitcases are much better than theirs- if yours are really good ones and theirs aren't. You think if they're intelligent and all, the other person, and have a good sense of humor, that they don't give a damn whose suitcases are better, but they do. They really do."
ReplyDeleteOn the outside, Holden appears to be a superficial, judgmental kid. He looks like a typical teenager, too: self-centered, self conscious, indecisive, and angry. However, what differentiates him from the masses of other average teenagers is his ability to read people and observe humanity in shocking detail. Often, Holden relays his observations in short, random thoughts, as well; one's initial thoughts about a statement Holden makes evolve into a completely new idea after further contemplation. The quote above reflects an observation Holden has made about society in a random thought about suitcases. He observes that humans focus too much on materialistic objects such as fancy suitcases, rather than their intelligence or humor; the care about the "things" they have rather than the "qualities" they have. So, yes, Holden has qualities that classify him as a typical teenager, but perhaps the intelligent, thorough observations Holden makes about humanity individualizes him from the normal.
I agree with you Rachel! Holden only see the realistic side of things. He doesn't try to sugar coat situations to make himself have a different outlook on life. I respect him for being true to the way things are and how he feels like when he suggests to Sally spontaneously that they run away. That is how he honestly felt at the time, so he didn't hide that feeling.
Delete"He did some lousy old half gainer all day long. It was the only dive he could do, but he thought he was very hot stuff. All muscles and no brains." (Page 135)
ReplyDeleteHolden is a typical teenager when it comes to the way he thinks and speaks. His selection of slang and his vocabulary use is indicative of him being a teenager. Holden mostly thinks like a teenager as shown in the above quote. The reason for this is because Holden likes to judge people -- especially people who exceed Holden's skills. Holden describes Al Pike's dive as "lousy" and "the only dive he could do." Holden isn't one to judge because he, most likely, cannot dive as well as Al Pike. Most teenagers are always in some sort of competition to see who is "better." Holden is as well. Holden doesn't want to describe another person as "better" than him. Holden's words do reveal a keen eye for humanities foibles. He notices the smallest details about people or their personalities based on their actions or their appearance. They are not always accurate per say, however, Holden notices details most others wouldn't while keeping in mind that all ideas are opinionated.
"You ought to go to a boys' school sometime. Try it sometime," I said. "It's full of phonies, and all you do is study so that you can learn enough to be smart enough to be able to buy a goddam Cadillac some day, and you have to keep making believe you give a damn if the football team loses, and all you do is talk about girls and liquor and sex all day, and everybody sticks together in these dirty little goddam cliques." (Chapter 17, page 47)
ReplyDeleteI think that Holden is anything but the typical teenager. He thinks about events and happenings in a style that very few other people his age would think to consider. For example, in the above quote, Holden is explaining his hatred of boys' schools. Very few teenagers would consider a private and "posh" school to be an exercise in phoniness. He sees the end goal of his schooling as becoming smart enough to buy a "goddam Cadillac". He questions this fate, and the faking that he feels is necessary to survive in school, such as faking interest in football games, and conversations about sex and girls and liquor. His attitude towards school is very cynical and could come across as whiny, but it is still a very unique and open view that is beyond his years. He recognizes things about the people he associates himself with that could be considered wise and insightful, if delivered with a slightly less sarcastic tone. Holden's voice is cynical and negative, but this does not make him a typical teenager. It also doesn't make him unintelligent or crude. Despite his voice, Holden still demonstrates intellect and unique observance. This in itself is rare, thus making Holden a very unique teenager. Holden also seems to intentionally separate himself from other teenage boys by talking about them as if he is another species entirely. This theme is demonstrated throughout the entire book, with Holden purposely ostracizing himself, in an effort to place distance between the "phonies" and himself, even though Holden often acts with a certain degree of phoniness. It is in this way that Holden is more like the average teenager. He feels contempt for certain characteristics, such as his version as "phoniness", but cannot bring himself to go against what seems to be popular and widely accepted. Even though he condemns his fellow classmates for doing all kinds of fake and phony things, he often joins them, such as talking about girls and liquor and the like.
Holden doesn't seem to be only a cynical, depressed complainer. One must take into account that for instance, he feels very dumb compared to his family members. I think this keeps him from pushing himself in school. Emotionally, Holden was deeply effected by Allie's death. One must also remember that we are reading a narration by Holden in the first person. The character Holden has revealed to us is not necessarily one he shows everyone. Finally, Holden does not only make cynical, depressed comments. While in the Natural History Museum, Holden made an insightful comment about walking by the Eskimo each time he went, that, "nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you. Not that you'd be much older or anything. It wouldn't be that, exactly. You'd just be different, that's all." This remark demonstrates Holden's understanding that no matter how little time has passed, you change. Maybe Holden will eventually realize that he can change for the better!
ReplyDelete"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was."
ReplyDelete(pg. 121)
This quote simply implies that Holden is not a fan of change. He likes consistency and a stability. Although Holden often times likes to appear tough and strong like an adult, this quote is a reminder to the reader that Holden is, in fact, only a mere teenager, and the thought of change for most teenagers, myself included, is overwhelming and scary. The more intriguing part of this sentence is how insightful yet utterly depressing it is. Holden almost insists that the museum is something that he can always rely on no matter how much he or the world changes. It is this cynical tone of voice and this unintended stroke of brilliance that sets Holden apart from the rest of the teenage population. Holden simply thinks differently than most teenagers and and reflects on life in a much more profound manner. However, I do believe that some of this complex and disillusioned thinking is credited to the death of his brother, Allie. I also believe that his brother's tragedy is why Holden is more of a pessimist than an optimist. Holden did not only lose a brother the day he lost Allie. He also lost the stability of his household, the sanity of his parents, and his own balance of mind. Therefore, I believe that Holden grasps onto any form of consistency that he can and embraces it in order to reclaim the safety and security that his life used to have. All in all, while Holden sometimes acts as a typical teenager on the outside, I believe that his mind is much more intellectual than the average teenager due to the multiple misfortunes Holden has experienced in his seemingly privileged life.
I agree with your point that Holden's life changed when Allie died. I also believe that the death of Allie caused Holden to grow up in a sense. While the "typical teenager" makes the biggest deal over who they are going to prom with, Holden knows that there is so much more to life than high school. When Holden asks Sally, "...did you ever get scared that everything was going to go lousy unless you did something?" and when he attempts to convince Sally to run away with him by telling her everything would be different in 5 years, and they wouldn't have anytime to really live their lives. These two examples show just how much Holden's mind and thoughts differ from those of Sally.
Delete"I'm a very light eater. I really am. That's why I'm so damn skinny."
ReplyDeleteHolden seems to make up excuses for everything, such as for his skinniness or his lack of sexual interactions that he discussed in chapter 14. This portrays him as a "cynical, depressed complainer," however his ability to constantly characterize individuals with a keen wit suggests otherwise. Despite his many excuses that categorize him as a typical teenager and complainer, the majority of Holden's narration shows how unusual he really is. He seems to be very family-oriented, which is strange considering how strained his family relationships are. He is very torn up by Allie's death, and is very fond of Phoebe. Most teenagers like to "act cool" and dismiss their family members, instead soaking up the opportunity to leave their siblings and parents behind for time with their friends, yet Holden seems to have genuine feelings of love for his siblings. Holden also shows his unusual character when he talks down about himself, which is not something most teenagers tend to do. For instance, earlier in the novel, when he is discussing how he would go about getting his stolen gloves back, he openly admits that he does not like to engage in fist fights. His pessimistic nature shows the reader that Holden is not a typical teenager, and that he is far more intelligent that his failing grades would suggest.
I agree, there is certainly more to Holden than meets the eye. Despite his negative outlook on many aspects of life, one can not characterize Holden as simply a "cynical, depressed complainer," his character is far more complex. Holden has many virtues that readers only occasionally get a glimpse of. From his keen observational eye to his references to classical literature to his occasional use of impressive vocabulary, it is clear that Holden's intellect is not properly represented by his grades. In addition, I believe that Holden is far less bellicose than his previous actions may lead us to believe. Despite his assault of Stradlater, Holden does seem to prefer to settle disputes through diplomatic means. It seems as though their is an untapped wisdom to Holden waiting to be unveiled.
Delete"I used to think she was quite intelligent, in my stupidity...it takes you quite awhile to find out whether they're really stupid or not... I think i would have found out a lot sooner if we hadn't necked so damn much."
ReplyDeleteI think Holden is a typical teenager. All teenagers have thoughts like these, they just don't always share them. Holden is very opinionated, cynical, and cares about girls, dating, and the opposite sex as an average teenager would. Since the book is written from Holden's point of view, we are truly what it means to be inside of somebody's head. Holden is a cynical character. However, these are normal thoughts for somebody to have. Holden's thoughts are no different than thoughts average people have at times. There is nothing wrong with having cynical thoughts, but what makes the thoughts genuinely cynical is whether or not people decide to share them. Holden is very aware of humanities foibles, however been attentive is different than being negative.
Holden's heightened awareness of others' shortcomings, while not necessarily bad, does distinguish him from a typical teenager. I agree that Holden often says what most other teenagers are thinking, but he also stands out because of his unusually negative viewpoint. That he always notices the negative aspects of everyday life does not necessarily make him extremely different from most teenagers, who are notorious for complaining; it is his failure to see the bright side and his idiosyncratic manner of expressing his complaints that set him apart.
Delete"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was."
ReplyDelete(pg. 121)
Although this quote may seem like an obvious statement of fact at first glance, it is really another piece of the puzzle that is Holden's psyche. One can infer that Holden is fond of the museum because it offers a little constancy to Holden's unstable life. From the death of his brother to his constant transfer of schools, Holden yearns for something with a hint of permanence to exist in his hectic life. Every time Holden visits the museum, everything is always in the same spot in the same display. Because life is so uncertain for Holden, he treasures the museum's virtue of consistency.
"The terrible part, though, is that I meant it when I asked her. That's the terrible part. I swear to God I'm a madman." (p. 134)
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden is a typical teenager. Although his mind can be a dark place, it's thoughts like this when he gets flustered around a girl that we see he is really a normal teenager. Teenagers tend to make rash decisions, and say things they don't mean, and this quote is a great example of that. At the time Holden invited Sally to run away with him, or told her he loved her, he believed he meant it; however, minutes later his beliefs changed. His emotions shifted drastically, much like a normal teenager. Everyone thinks bad things, but act different ways; no matter how old Holden appears to act, he is still very much a teenager on the inside. Holden's tone when speaking to the reader is very comfortable and casual, as if the reader is a friend. This leads me to believe everything he is saying is true, and even if he is not being honest with the outside world, he is being honest with the reader, which gives the reader an interesting look into the mind of a teenager.
“Goddam money. It always ends up making you blue as hell.” (p. 113)
ReplyDeleteObviously we are aware that Holden comes from very wealthy family. From having all this money Holden lives life from a different point of view than most people. This is why I believe he is always ranting about peoples flaws and saying that things are phony. This quote proves this by saying because of all of his money, he's mood is often "blue" or gloomy. Having this emotional feeling inside him is most likely the source of all of his rants because his view on the world is luxurious and when he see's something unattractive he has to point it out and call it out. Overall I don't think of Holden as a necessarily snobby kid, its just the life he was born into everything was probably perfect and anything that isn't is peculiar or different to him.
I agree when you say that Holden's point of view is bias due to the fact that he is wealthy. To me, this is a keen observation that I never realized until reading this response. In my opinion, this factor by itself makes Holden a not so typical teenager. I wouldn't call him cynical, but I would say that his family's wealth makes life much different. If he wasn't wealthy, Holden would most likely not judge people as often. Also, I believe that the rants and tangents would differ. Perhaps he would speak more of how thankful or lucky he is rather than how unlucky he or another is.
Delete"I mean do you hate it? I know it's a terrific bore, but do you hate it, is what I mean" (130)
ReplyDelete- When Holden is on his date with Sally he begins to talk of his future and how he views the normal institutions that society forces on him. One topic which is directly addressed is his view of school after Sally seems to have no real feelings and says "It's a terrific bore", for he says that he hates school he is direct and fully confident that no matter what school will only be an impediment on his life. This is where Holden differs from the many teenagers who have planned out their future with jobs and education and who have truly accepted that they must deal with school to move toward a future that society says we need. Holden's view is that if one truly asks the question "do I hate school?" and the answers is yes then they should not burden themselves with it. Holden wishes to make these decisions and to move on in his life away from the socially mandated activities that he has no wish to be apart of. When he asks Sally to respond he is truly beginning to ask himself what would his future be without things such as school. This is why Holden is no typical teenager.
"So my roommate and I walked him down to the bathroom and all, and we had to stand there while he looked for his initials in all the can doors. He kept talking to us the whole time, telling us how when he was at Pencey they were the happiest days of his life, and giving us a lot of advice for the future and all. Boy, did he depress me!"
ReplyDeleteIn telling this story to Phoebe, Holden displays an attitude common to many teenagers - the fear of growing old. The reason the incident depressed Holden seems to be his imagining himself in the place of this man decades later, looking back on his high school days and having the initials he once carved into a bathroom door be of such importance to him. Most teenagers can relate to this anecdote: they realize that their youth will not last forever and harbor an inner fear that the peak of their life will occur during adolescence. After all, if one of the highlights of your life is carving your initials on a door, your life must have gone downhill after high school. Holden, in this observation as well as others, demonstrates the ability to express the unarticulated sentiments of many teenagers through his storytelling.